Thanks to Mike Rodden for sharing the posted video. John McArthur referrences Jesus coming to save the lost. I am not making a soteriological statement when I assert that McArthur is the one who is lost. He is lost in evangelical conservatism and is not even listening to other followers of Jesus. His agenda is to hear anything from an "Emergent" mind and decontextualize it in order to destroy any thoughtful contributions to theological thinking. The following video is problematic at many levels. Please share your thoughts and perspective.
hey. i really get so mad when i hear christians fussing with each other instead of working together to do something eternal. i guess part of the reason for the big debate is trying to determine what is etermal, but whatever.
anyway, i blogged a video sermon by brennan manning that really moved me today. it seems like he has a better grasp on Christ's love than anybody mentioned in this guy's video. make of it what you will.
I too have recently viewed this discourse. For as long as I can remember I have had a great deal of respect for John Mcarthur, I have even read some of his books. However after hearing his thoughts on this issue I have to say that I see him in a little different light. All I can say is that if the "Christianity" that he teaches is true, then I want nothing to do with Christianity! I quite!!!
"Jesus came only to forgive sins" I just dont know that to think of this comment. All I know is that is not at all the Jesus or the gospel that I know............
Don't let the man keep you down or push you to the edge of "quite". The truth is you have to stick it to the Man. And "The Man" only uses folks like John McArthur and Brian McClaren. "The Man" is actually Tony Danza (who’s the boss indeed) and he has been using these minions of his and others to distract Christians from the real crisis facing our world: women who wear pants to Sunday morning services. Don't be fooled or distracted...this is the defining issue of our generation. It’s up to us to have the strength and conviction to do what must be done. Hang in there brother!
Why are we fighting with fellow believers. Honestly, if people keep pointing fingers at each other and saying that what they believe is wrong, the true image of God will become distorted. Possibly so much so that no one will look at Christianity and God in a good way. If we all believe in God and we profess to be His follower, then why are we concentrating on what everyone else is doing instead of what God is doing?
lee's right about one thing: tony danza is the boss. however, he's not the man. scott baio is the man. be not deceived.
also, while women wearing pants in church is an issue that deserves our attention, i feel that women wearing no pants to church is equally or perhaps even more important for our generation. consider the brethren. they'll be "quite"ing left and right. their non-believing friends would probably even "quite" too.
But Jesus did so much more... He simply was so much more...
i don't believe he saw people as a number to save...but he saw their humanity and their lost state provoked Him to love them and demonstrate His purpose to them.
klynn, thank you for your post (whoever you are). my entry was reactionary which i usually try to avoid. i was highly angered. there are some dangers in not responding to things that are wrong... like mcarthur's teaching in this video. otherwise we apathetically (and probably inadvertantly) support and even promote relativism. at some level there must be what is a brueggemannian concept of criticizing the current consciousness to energize an alternative consciousness.
Wow, you just created your own word TK. Tonight has been one of the funniest, thought provoking, and just best nights in a long time. Thank you for your contribution, and your constant remarks about current consciousness'. It makes me think of Troy and how conscious he is most of the time. That's my witty statement for this post.
haha the first time I read Joe's comment I was not sure why my name was brought up but I think I finally got it. I tried to think of something witty to say but I don't think it is going to come to me this late. Oh wait....I got one.....Dr. Kim is very replaceable......oops
Jesus brought hope via Agape!!! Love cast out fear! He brought his kingdom to Earth. If his only mission was to allow us to escape hell why did he command us "love your neighbor as yourself"? Why did he say, "one who does not provide for his family is worse than the infidel?" I'm thankful for salvation and the escape from death, separation from God, Hell! But, Chelsea is right on---He did so much more. My desire is to honor, praise, and worship Him as best I can while hear on Earth and to reflect His love to the lost; not to preach fear.
I definitely don't think that Jesus' only purpose on earth was to make it so people could go to Heaven and save them from Hell. Despite what this guy says he was definitely concerned with social justice. However, I do think that saving people from Hell, if not the primary reason for Jesus being on earth then definitely a major reason. Like Chelsea said he didn't see them as a number to save, he saw them as his children that he loved deeply and wanted to save.
Just out of interest I looked at the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene and we don't start our articles of belief with our theology of the Bible, we start it with our beliefs on the Triune God.
Why are all of the emergent types so concerned about trying to denigrate Jesus' substitutionary work on the cross? Is that the only thing Jesus came to do? No! Clearly, he did other things while he was here, but read the Gospel accounts and realize that Jesus and the cross are central to his reason for coming! If you guys would take a little time away from painting, dimming the lights, and lighting your candles, maybe we could realize there is more at stake than being "cool" or "hip." I'm not a huge MacArthur fan, but at least he has the guts to stand up for the gospel on Larry King...heaven forbid we Christians actually stand up for something we believe in that may OFFEND someone else!?
david, i like your thoughts on this. that's the notion that i've kept having as this discussion has gone on: Jesus DID come to earth to restore our relationship with the Father. i've heard some preachers say that He used miracles to get people's attention sometimes, and most recently i heard brennan manning talk about the "pity" Jesus felt toward people being such a gut-wrenching, love-sick feeling that He would just heal them. He loved them so much that He just wanted to make them well. i can buy both of those (and especially the second really falls into line pretty well with what lots of people are saying on this discussion board).
but where the contention is happening seems to be in the poor communication by/between BOTH sides. (you know, the two opposing teams in a family that is called to work together to save the world...) it sounds like (based on MacAurthur's video here) we're not supposed to care about hurting people or be concerned for others' physical needs...but there's no way he meant that...seriously. he was just arguing against the perception that the emergent church feels that people's salvation is not that important... obviously, they can't possibly mean that either. it's my understanding that the idea behind focusing on people's earthly needs is to provide an opportunity to help them with their eternal needs, even though sometimes we help them with whatever they need simply because our heart breaks for them and we love them so much.
the most important part of communication is listening. speaking and reacting are not nearly as productive without it.
edit to my last post: it is important to note, however, that i really don't like john mcarthur. travis, i agree that he's only listening to enough of the dialog to pull a soundbyte out of context... and i also watched a couple of other interviews he's done and just wanted to puke.
plus, i just haven't really know how to react to him ever since i became pregnant with his child.
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone want to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only you brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Status :: Married, Sarah Children :: Kyla Religion :: Follower of Jesus Residence :: Mount Vernon OH Political Views :: Unassociated Occupation :: Resident Director, MVNU Student :: NNU Major :: M.A.R. Missional Leadership
19 comments:
i don't understand why the editor of the video spliced in a photo of rick warren on the beach. that's funny.
hey. i really get so mad when i hear christians fussing with each other instead of working together to do something eternal. i guess part of the reason for the big debate is trying to determine what is etermal, but whatever.
anyway, i blogged a video sermon by brennan manning that really moved me today. it seems like he has a better grasp on Christ's love than anybody mentioned in this guy's video. make of it what you will.
I too have recently viewed this discourse. For as long as I can remember I have had a great deal of respect for John Mcarthur, I have even read some of his books. However after hearing his thoughts on this issue I have to say that I see him in a little different light. All I can say is that if the "Christianity" that he teaches is true, then I want nothing to do with Christianity! I quite!!!
"Jesus came only to forgive sins" I just dont know that to think of this comment. All I know is that is not at all the Jesus or the gospel that I know............
Steb,
Don't let the man keep you down or push you to the edge of "quite". The truth is you have to stick it to the Man. And "The Man" only uses folks like John McArthur and Brian McClaren. "The Man" is actually Tony Danza (who’s the boss indeed) and he has been using these minions of his and others to distract Christians from the real crisis facing our world: women who wear pants to Sunday morning services. Don't be fooled or distracted...this is the defining issue of our generation. It’s up to us to have the strength and conviction to do what must be done. Hang in there brother!
Why are we fighting with fellow believers. Honestly, if people keep pointing fingers at each other and saying that what they believe is wrong, the true image of God will become distorted. Possibly so much so that no one will look at Christianity and God in a good way. If we all believe in God and we profess to be His follower, then why are we concentrating on what everyone else is doing instead of what God is doing?
lee's right about one thing: tony danza is the boss. however, he's not the man. scott baio is the man. be not deceived.
also, while women wearing pants in church is an issue that deserves our attention, i feel that women wearing no pants to church is equally or perhaps even more important for our generation. consider the brethren. they'll be "quite"ing left and right. their non-believing friends would probably even "quite" too.
But Jesus did so much more...
He simply was so much more...
i don't believe he saw people as a number to save...but he saw their humanity and their lost state provoked Him to love them and demonstrate His purpose to them.
klynn,
thank you for your post (whoever you are). my entry was reactionary which i usually try to avoid. i was highly angered. there are some dangers in not responding to things that are wrong... like mcarthur's teaching in this video. otherwise we apathetically (and probably inadvertantly) support and even promote relativism. at some level there must be what is a brueggemannian concept of criticizing the current consciousness to energize an alternative consciousness.
Wow, you just created your own word TK. Tonight has been one of the funniest, thought provoking, and just best nights in a long time. Thank you for your contribution, and your constant remarks about current consciousness'. It makes me think of Troy and how conscious he is most of the time. That's my witty statement for this post.
Poned
haha the first time I read Joe's comment I was not sure why my name was brought up but I think I finally got it. I tried to think of something witty to say but I don't think it is going to come to me this late. Oh wait....I got one.....Dr. Kim is very replaceable......oops
Jesus brought hope via Agape!!!
Love cast out fear!
He brought his kingdom to Earth. If his only mission was to allow us to escape hell why did he command us "love your neighbor as yourself"? Why did he say, "one who does not provide for his family is worse than the infidel?"
I'm thankful for salvation and the escape from death, separation from God, Hell! But, Chelsea is right on---He did so much more. My desire is to honor, praise, and worship Him as best I can while hear on Earth and to reflect His love to the lost; not to preach fear.
your face is a brueggemannian mystery.
I definitely don't think that Jesus' only purpose on earth was to make it so people could go to Heaven and save them from Hell. Despite what this guy says he was definitely concerned with social justice. However, I do think that saving people from Hell, if not the primary reason for Jesus being on earth then definitely a major reason. Like Chelsea said he didn't see them as a number to save, he saw them as his children that he loved deeply and wanted to save.
Just out of interest I looked at the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene and we don't start our articles of belief with our theology of the Bible, we start it with our beliefs on the Triune God.
Why are all of the emergent types so concerned about trying to denigrate Jesus' substitutionary work on the cross? Is that the only thing Jesus came to do? No! Clearly, he did other things while he was here, but read the Gospel accounts and realize that Jesus and the cross are central to his reason for coming! If you guys would take a little time away from painting, dimming the lights, and lighting your candles, maybe we could realize there is more at stake than being "cool" or "hip." I'm not a huge MacArthur fan, but at least he has the guts to stand up for the gospel on Larry King...heaven forbid we Christians actually stand up for something we believe in that may OFFEND someone else!?
david, i like your thoughts on this. that's the notion that i've kept having as this discussion has gone on: Jesus DID come to earth to restore our relationship with the Father. i've heard some preachers say that He used miracles to get people's attention sometimes, and most recently i heard brennan manning talk about the "pity" Jesus felt toward people being such a gut-wrenching, love-sick feeling that He would just heal them. He loved them so much that He just wanted to make them well. i can buy both of those (and especially the second really falls into line pretty well with what lots of people are saying on this discussion board).
but where the contention is happening seems to be in the poor communication by/between BOTH sides. (you know, the two opposing teams in a family that is called to work together to save the world...) it sounds like (based on MacAurthur's video here) we're not supposed to care about hurting people or be concerned for others' physical needs...but there's no way he meant that...seriously. he was just arguing against the perception that the emergent church feels that people's salvation is not that important... obviously, they can't possibly mean that either. it's my understanding that the idea behind focusing on people's earthly needs is to provide an opportunity to help them with their eternal needs, even though sometimes we help them with whatever they need simply because our heart breaks for them and we love them so much.
the most important part of communication is listening. speaking and reacting are not nearly as productive without it.
edit to my last post: it is important to note, however, that i really don't like john mcarthur. travis, i agree that he's only listening to enough of the dialog to pull a soundbyte out of context... and i also watched a couple of other interviews he's done and just wanted to puke.
plus, i just haven't really know how to react to him ever since i became pregnant with his child.
John McArthur's comments are, at their core, functional gnosticism. Someone should write a book about that.
What the Hell...?
Post a Comment